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Mad Mike's picture
Velociraptor Fister
Kickstarter Backer
Posts: 1129
Submitted: Thu, 13/07/2017 - 13:08

Gunsmith wrote:
'SetSteerGyroscope()': simply keeps the wheels center to the car when no steering input is entered, it doesnt actively counter oversteer

Not exclusively. With the gyroscope disabled, the wheels still auto center when there is zero input, I can provide video of this if you would like. With or without the gyroscope, after light turning, the wheels seemingly appear to counter steer ever so slightly, even if the angle is only slight and there is no discernible change to vehicle direction.

Quote:
and stabilitygrip change sounds like its simulating the grip increase of spinning wheels slowing to match relative roadspeed.

Not really, a slow down in wheel speed that would result from the tires biting/finding traction/grip is not a manifestation of the tires being directly given extra grip above the amount of grip generated by that tire. It is worth noting, that the 'StabilityGripChange()' changes grip, and doesn't affect traction, so theoretically it has minimal or even zero affect on a car that is burning out, instead it affects turning & sliding only.

Edited by: Mad Mike on Thu, 13/07/2017 - 13:12

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Trent's picture
I was in the War!
Community VIPKickstarter BackerCompetition Winner
Posts: 2989
Submitted: Thu, 13/07/2017 - 13:53

Mad Mike wrote:
Gunsmith wrote:
'SetSteerGyroscope()': simply keeps the wheels center to the car when no steering input is entered, it doesnt actively counter oversteer

Not exclusively. With the gyroscope disabled, the wheels still auto center when there is zero input, I can provide video of this if you would like. With or without the gyroscope, after light turning, the wheels seemingly appear to counter steer ever so slightly, even if the angle is only slight and there is no discernible change to vehicle direction.

Pretty sure that's related to the Castor settings

car:SetCastorSpeed1(0)
car:SetCastorSpeed2(1)
car:SetCastorSpeedVel(100)

For those who aren't aware, Castor is the effect of wheels straightening out in the direction of motion due to the pivot point being ahead of the contact patch on the ground. An easy to understand example of this is shopping trolleys, when you push them the castor wheels always point in the direction of motion. That's what is being simulated here. It's not counter steering assistance trying to straighten the car out by turning into a skid, it's just changing the wheel direction based on physically correct wheel movement.

The Gyroscope settings, on the other hand, pretty much does the opposite by simulating Gyroscopic motion, where a wheel spinning around one access will resist changes in motion along a different axis. It stops the wheel turning with the car. Again, nothing to do with counter steering, just physics.

Quote:
Quote:
and stabilitygrip change sounds like its simulating the grip increase of spinning wheels slowing to match relative roadspeed.

Not really, a slow down in wheel speed that would result from the tires biting/finding traction/grip is not a manifestation of the tires being directly given extra grip above the amount of grip generated by that tire. It is worth noting, that the 'StabilityGripChange()' changes grip, and doesn't affect traction, so theoretically it has minimal or even zero affect on a car that is burning out, instead it affects turning & sliding only.

I'm pretty sure the StabilityGripChange is meant to simulate the physics of tyre's physical grip increasing at higher speeds due to the increased pressure. If anyone's watched racing which involves different tyre choices, such as F1, they will be aware of the fact the grip levels in tyres change between a standing start and full speed. I don't think it is applied per wheel when losing traction, but rather applied per tyre based on the forces being applied to them. Subtle but distinct difference. As Mike mentioned above, it's changing the actual grip level of the tyres, it's not Traction Control. Traction Control would be detecting the loss of traction to each individual wheel and adjusting the power output to each of them separately to regain traction. Again, it's attempting to simulate physical properties of car under motion, it's not a driving assist.

As far as I'm aware the game does not use traction control on any of the cars. There are actually two car settings relating to traction control mentioned in the game's exe: TractionControlFade and TractionControlTime, however they don't seem to be used at all, they're not used in any vehicle config, and I don't even know if they actually do anything. The game seems to be designed with no driving assists in use at all, any things which might be assumed to be driving assists are actually just the result of the highly accurate physics simulation.

Mad Mike's picture
Velociraptor Fister
Kickstarter Backer
Posts: 1129
Submitted: Thu, 13/07/2017 - 15:58

Quote:
The Gyroscope settings, on the other hand, pretty much does the opposite by simulating Gyroscopic motion, where a wheel spinning around one access will resist changes in motion along a different axis. It stops the wheel turning with the car. Again, nothing to do with counter steering, just physics.

'Hits himself around the back of the head' - How could I 'expletive' forget that the basic point of a gyroscope was to to maintain angular velocity & momentum against external forces? In this instance keeping the steering stable against whatever other forces are acting upon the car.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the StabilityGripChange is meant to simulate the physics of tyre's physical grip increasing at higher speeds due to the increased pressure. If anyone's watched racing which involves different tyre choices, such as F1, they will be aware of the fact the grip levels in tyres change between a standing start and full speed. I don't think it is applied per wheel when losing traction, but rather applied per tyre based on the forces being applied to them. Subtle but distinct difference. As Mike mentioned above, it's changing the actual grip level of the tyres, it's not Traction Control. Traction Control would be detecting the loss of traction to each individual wheel and adjusting the power output to each of them separately to regain traction. Again, it's attempting to simulate physical properties of car under motion, it's not a driving assist.

A high StabilityGripChange factor does certainly keep the car in check at speed, but I was under the impression it added grip to the tires in any condition where there is insufficient grip. I could be wrong, but I did find it takes considerably more space to get a car to do doughnuts with a very high StabilityGripChange factor. At first, the car doesn't spin suggesting the extra grip (2g's for testing purposes) is at play then, granted this isn't a particularly scientific test.

Interestingly, I would of thought the appropriate 'SetFrontDownforce()' & 'SetRearDownforce()' values would be used to generate the extra grip for better cornering at speed. I might have to look into that further.

I really have got this topic onto a bit of a tangent, albeit a fairly relevant subject. Either way, I'll stand by my initial statement with a bit of an addition:
"There are several factors in game, that can seem to mimick the effects of automatic counter-steering." - But it doesn't mean that there is an active automatic counter-steering mechanism. Granted at times, to the unsuspecting eye, it can look like there is.

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Gunsmith's picture
Norman E. Carnage
Posts: 54
Submitted: Thu, 13/07/2017 - 16:10

Mad Mike wrote:
lots of interesting words with video experimentation.

some good posts and some interesting reading, tbh even back when I was working at codemasters I could never fully explain how i used to destroy everyone in the office much to the annoyance of our chief handling designer.

Edited by: Gunsmith on Thu, 13/07/2017 - 16:11
flykas's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
Posts: 402
Submitted: Fri, 14/07/2017 - 08:55

Trent wrote:
The game seems to be designed with no driving assists in use at all, any things which might be assumed to be driving assists are actually just the result of the highly accurate physics simulation.

Okay, but why then cars don't drive realistically ? Try to drive in any racing sim or at least in Beam ng without assists and there is a huge difference. I mean these cars are supposed to be powerful, but you can't even do a burnout without using wheelspin button.
Or are you saying that they are just created and set up like that and it is possible to create accurate physics for a vehicle. ?

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