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HEX1GON's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
Posts: 261
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 10:58

You're unstoppable mate, awesome stuff!

Mad Mike's picture
Velociraptor Fister
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Posts: 1129
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 20:07

Fuelinjectedsuicidemachine wrote:
Hehe, maybe I exaggerated a bit with the Tashita example and most of the time The Plow pushes other cars relatively easy. However cars like Towmeister or Caddy Fat Cat, which both weight 1/3 of the Plow, proved to be quite strong engine wise when they're directly head on to me. It could also be the case that this was intentionally done by Stainless to prevent heavier cars in wrecking smaller cars too easily.

Yep, It could be deliberate change to give weaker cars half a chance against the bigger Vehicles. Although bear in mind in higher tiers of the career mode, it might be setting upgraded APO for opponents? I don't know for sure.

Regardless if you get caught between Big Dump and a wall (or under it for most cars)... ...then it's Pancake Time.

Quote:
Sorry, if it was unclear, indeed I meant offence. I know that the weight of the car matches the real life one, even with the huge bumper on it. Although I think it could be lighter due to balancing issues. I think 2,1 or 2,2 tons would be good, considering that Towmeister is at 2,0 tons, but that's really just me being bitchy about basically nothing. It is your modded car and you should decide what's the best for it. I was just thinking about. Caddy Fat Cat is 1,9 tons, that's relatively light for such a vehicle with it's huge metal spikes. It's performance is quite excellent nonetheless.

No worries, I appreciate the input. Yep, Caddy is around 300-400 Kg lighter than a years matching Coupe De Ville or Eldorado (not counting the spikes, hehe). I might yet tweak the weight when messing with the suspension, but I wouldn't go lighter than 2100 Kgs with the cars sheer size.

Quote:
Yes, I agree with "not as floaty as Caddy", it should be less wonky for the Leadpumper, but still soft. Leadpumper was a bit less soft than Caddy back in C1 and Caddy tended to go up and down with the front and back of the car sometimes, while Leadpumper did not. Was great fun driving them, lol. ;)

I'll definitely bear that in mind when tweaking the suspension :)

HEX1GON wrote:
You're unstoppable mate, awesome stuff!

Thanks Hex! :)

One man... Alone... Wrecking opponents in the Automobile he loves
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MemoryKill's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
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Posts: 116
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 21:08

Mike, a question.

In C2 you had the "softness" factor in the vehicles xml which followed this sorta thing:

// softness 0.7 is soft(sportscar), 0.2 is tough(truck), 0.0 is a rock(solig granite car)

You also had "mass" as follows:

// Mass: The more mass you have the more damage you can inflict.
// 1.5 - 2 is average, but 60-80 tons will let you smash through just
// about anything.

Where is the "softness" factor in relation to cars? Because in C2 the trick, if you will, was balancing the MASS against the SOFTNESS factor to create the desired effect/strength/power of the car.

If your car was REALLY heavy but not too strong like big dump, it would waste it self against a wall at stupid low speeds. And in reverse, if the car weight like 0.9 or below and had a softness factor of like 0.1 it was almost invincible from all but the most epic collisions (and it got pushed around by virtually anything.

Abba Cab, from C2, was one of the toughest and strongest overall vehicles in the game because it had a decent mass of 6 but it's softness factor was 0.125, just double checking the .TWT file now, yeah. It was almost the perfect balance between OFFENSIVE strength, and ARMOR and it's speed was not to be shy about either.

So my question is, I've had a look my self but not really seen anything relative to it, is there this similar option in the vehicles files? Because I reckon if Big Dump was made to be a bit "softer" and "lighter" it could still easily plow through anything at speed and more easily waste opponents, without just, atm, pushing them indefinately until pancake time.

Striking the balance, especially for me personally for modded cars was always a big deal and I always used Abba Cab as a "baseline" to alter the values. What do you reckon?

EDIT

I think i found it, in car_stats.xml inside scripts.zad:

Spoiler:
<Cell ss:Index="2"><Data ss:Type="String">General Defence</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Tier mean</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Car Defence</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Tier mean</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Offence</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Tier mean</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Value</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Tier mean</Data></Cell>
    <Cell ss:Index="11"><Data ss:Type="String">Toughness</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Mass</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">0-60</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">0-100</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">MPH</Data></Cell>
   </Row>
   <Row ss:AutoFitHeight="0">
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="String">Countslash</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0.6</Data></Cell>
    <Cell ss:Index="4"><Data ss:Type="Number">0.7</Data></Cell>
    <Cell ss:Index="6"><Data ss:Type="Number">0.8</Data></Cell>
    <Cell ss:Index="8"><Data ss:Type="Number">1</Data></Cell>
    <Cell ss:Index="11" ss:Formula="=AVERAGE(RC[-9],RC[-7],RC[-5],RC[-3])"><Data
      ss:Type="Number">0.77499999999999991</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">0.85</Data></Cell>
    <Cell ss:StyleID="s65"><Data ss:Type="Number">2.5</Data></Cell>
    <Cell ss:StyleID="s66"><Data ss:Type="Number">5.3</Data></Cell>
    <Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">190</Data></Cell>
   </Row>

As you can see (i removed Razor and kept Countslash as it's easier to read) the strings on top are the "meanings" and below is the values.

We are interested in this "Index=11" value which, for Slash, is 0.7749 which is it's "toughness" value. The question is, what does this value equate to in comparison and how far does it scale up? If you look at PLOW it's "toughness" is 4.34 with a mass of 6, nearly 7x as tough as Slash.

Weird thing is, we look at SUBpressor which is a WHOPPING 13.75 toughness value...wow. 30x as tough as Countslash.

I haven't faced subpressor yet, so I can not see/test if this vehicle is really nearly 4x "tougher" than Plow. Can any one chime in on this?

Sorry for wall of text and not to derail the thread to much, but thought this may be interesting to tweak/investigate by say setting Eagle/hawk to like 3/5/10/15 toughness to see if it really scales that much, and ofc, chaging the mass too.

Fuelinjectedsuicidemachine's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
Posts: 225
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 21:55

That's indeed something that would interest me too, MemoryKill. In C2 it was an easy to understand, but fairly complex working system.

Mad Mike's picture
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Posts: 1129
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 22:21

The main durability ratings are set amongst the characteristics in the structure.xml

	CVehicleCharacteristics:Set_DefenceAgainstCars()
	CVehicleCharacteristics:Set_DefenceGeneral()
	CVehicleCharacteristics:Set_Offence()
	CVehicleCharacteristics:Set_ValueFactor()
	CVehicleCharacteristics:Set_WholeBodyDeformationFactor()

However for the default cars, Stainless have relocated most of these to the central file (car_stats.xml) that you've already mentioned, for ease of editing/balancing.

In addition each individual car part has its own value for Crushability & optionally: stiffness, resiliance & restitution among many other things.

I have been looking at the stock car values for comparison, but these issues with no damage being done (unless ramming into the scenery) are only specific to the new build and not just to Big Dump. The Moth Truck suffers from the same issue.

I have finally unlocked the Plow, and am going to test the damage it does to weaker cars to see if it suffers in the same way my 2 heavyweight vehicles do.

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MemoryKill's picture
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Posts: 116
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 22:48

Yeah, i saw that, but i figured the same in C2 as you can set resistant values for engine/tyre/trans/steering etc but the softness factor really helped neutralize everything.

To update, editing the car_stats.xml didn't seem to do anything. I made the Eagle as "tough" as the subpressor but nada, deforms just as easy, damage indicators come up just as expected and ofc slaughter mortor/mines do the same lethal levels of damage. Even setting it 100x plus has no effect what so ever which i find very odd.

No stat seems to make a difference at all, I even made the Eagle 10x heavier with more mass via the car_stats folder and.....nothing, it seems to read from the actual files of the vehicles for mass and reads from the structure.xml of the vehicle for the deformation factors.

I'm not sure what's going on, despite what the -- bit at the top of the xml says, it still seems to just read from the actual cars files instead.

Warrants more experimentation, I wish there was just a universal factor like the softness factor in C2.

Mad Mike's picture
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Posts: 1129
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 22:57

Quote:
To update, editing the car_stats.xml didn't seem to do anything. I made the Eagle as "tough" as the subpressor but nada, deforms just as easy, damage indicators come up just as expected and ofc slaughter mortor/mines do the same lethal levels of damage. Even setting it 100x plus has no effect what so ever which i find very odd.

No stat seems to make a difference at all, I even made the Eagle 10x heavier with more mass via the car_stats folder and.....nothing, it seems to read from the actual files of the vehicles for mass and reads from the structure.xml of the vehicle for the deformation factors.

Editing the general defence value (toughness) on its own won't do anything, except protect you against the environment! The defence against cars (Car defence) & whole body deformation factor have to be edited aswell. The Whole body deformation factors is only defined locally in the structure.xml

The Weight and performance values in car_stats are completely meaningless. Those are just values printed to the UI (garage menu). The actual car Weight is defined with all of the performance variables in the setup.lol.

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Trent's picture
I was in the War!
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Posts: 2989
Submitted: Fri, 20/02/2015 - 23:03

Another part of the equation is that system_damage.xml manages how damage is applied to vehicles, e.g. what hierarchy parts are linked to which systems and how much the damage to those systems affect handling and performance and contribute to being wasted. If its set so the engine need to be damaged to waste the car but the engine model can't be hit because it's surrounded by solid parts then the car won't be able to be wasted no matter the toughness, offence, etc.

MemoryKill's picture
Cunning Stunt Licker
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Posts: 116
Submitted: Sat, 21/02/2015 - 00:54

I thought as much, rats. Gonna be a pain with the current method to tweak vehicles appropriately hence why props to all mod makers so far, i'm sure it's not hard to get into once you know where to be looking.

BTW, Mike you keep mentioning this CVehicleCharacteristics:Set_WholeBodyDeformationFactor() value which...I can not see anywhere in the cars structure files? Do you need to add it in or am i being blind?

Sleep Dirt's picture
Norman E. Carnage
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Posts: 58
Submitted: Sat, 21/02/2015 - 03:45

Hey MemoryKill,

You will find the value CVehicleCharacteristics:Set_WholeBodyDeformationFactor (), in the first block of text within the Structure.XML file, probably located towards the end of the text, it's samiched between two of these </CHARACTERISTICS>.

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